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Anthea
at 23:41, 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 14
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Hrant Dink
I posted under Poetry about Joyce's Ulysses & also included a paragraph about Hrant Dink's assassination in Turkey last month. I think it would have been more appropriate here under Politics. So if anyone wants to read, the post is the by Anthea on Feb. 23 ... you'll the subject title.
I'll be interested to hear thoughts on this from Sally, Simon, or anyone else who feels moved to respond.
~Anthea
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Brian Young
at 10:36, 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 28
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thoughts for you
Anthea
Go to "other topics/page 1/ and read the post titled "Realism"
Brian Young
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Anthea
at 12:12, 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 14
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Hrant Dink?
Hello, Brian....
Thanks for the comment here and on the post about the play. Am I missing something? I had read the post from Simon under Other Topics/Realism a while back. It is very good. Is there some connection to the recent assassination of Hrant Dink in Turkey? I think I must have missed something.
Maybe you can clarify....
All best....
~Anthea
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Brian Young
at 10:13, 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 28
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missing nothing
Anthea
No, you are not missing anything. I only meant that those posts by Sally and Simon are some the few direct statements about their philosophy, and I always felt that they should not be lost in the obscurity of all these threads. They have a tendency to get lost at the bottom of a long list, and not many people are as diligent as you have been to seek them out.
Of course they have no direct connection to your question. So maybe I was a bit too quick in suggesting them. But you have given me the urge to learn more about this incident. Thanks
Brian
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Anthea
at 11:49, 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 14
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Hrant Dink/Orhan Pamuk
eBrian....
Yes, you're so right. These posts by Sally & Simon are important & valuable. Your mentioning them again will serve to point more people in that direction which is good. Thanks for that.
Here are some good places to start reading about Dink & Pamuk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink
http://www.agos.com.tr/ -- can't get the language choices to work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orhan_Pamuk
http://www.orhanpamuk.net/ -- he's the 2006 Nobel Prize Winner for Literature, by the way.
Anyone interested in learning what is happening in Turkey so far as freedom of press and speech will be interested in these two men.....and there are numerous others who have been jailed under Article 301 for 'insulting Turkishness.'
On a very emotional note.....you can search UTube for dozens of pieces of video of the recent funeral of Hrant Dink. Some show graphic photos of his murdered body, so please be forewarned.
Best to all....
~Anthea
"And we must open our eyes."
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Brian Young
at 19:57, 1 Mar 2007
Posts: 28
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information
Anthea
Thanks for all the links. I will find time for them.
You might want to try
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/?p=47
Friday, March 16- I can hardly wait!
Brian
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Mukik
at 08:29, 4 Mar 2007
Posts: 1
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Sign and Forward the Armenian Genocide Recognition Petition
Please go to www.petition1915.org and sign the Armenian Genocide Recognition Petition and forward this invitation to your friends.
1,500,000 signatures will be gathered before April 20 2007. Sign the petition and promote it.
www.petition1915.org
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Anthea
at 12:05, 4 Mar 2007
Posts: 14
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GENECIDE PETITION
Hello.....
Thanks for this link. I signed just now. I signed last year as well. I think it was the same petition, but maybe not. The posters & wallpaper offered at the GenPost site are lovely...and free to individuals for personal use, or you can order quantities for campaigns on genocide awareness.
All best....
~Anthea
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vakasimo
at 00:59, 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 5
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Hrant Dink
I have a question to you all guys , what is the aim ? Why is this 1.500.000 signs for approving the genocide for example ? I really wonder why and I will be grateful if anyone answers me , this is sincerely an issue I want to learn.
Please respond.
vakasimo
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Brian Young
at 10:40, 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 28
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bringing truth to light
Nobody should get away with murder, but it happens all the time. Those who murder most, and in the light of day, are the ones who are most likely to get away with it. I mean politicians, like the gang of criminals in the White House today.
For too long the real criminals of the Earth have committed their crimes while”in office” (or power), and then they are left to live out their lives, leaving behind the sea of blood that they created. The Earth, the Human Earth, turns in her way, shoulder against the edge of time, and pulls the sunset of history along behind her. Being constantly enveloped in new miseries, we let the old ones fade, and turn them into fairy tales, romantic accounts of kings and conquerors, painted in the glorious colors of battlefield heroics.
There seems to a fervent wish for some kind of “statute of limitations” for genocide. And why not? We, white America, got away with our genocide against the Native Americans. We, white America, have never been held to account for our role in slavery.
Perhaps some feeble admissions of historic wrong doings; but no real accounting, no punishment, no repercussions, no reparations.
A case can be made for leniency, perhaps even forgiveness, in some individual cases. But there should be no indulgence for mass murder. Even if it too late to bring the dead back to life, it should be known that the perpetrators of large scale atrocities will never find peace on this earth. The weight of these atrocities is too great to be buried with their perpetrators. It is a strange world where people readily subscribe to preposterous theories like “original sin”, and accept it as a burden on humanity for all time, but at the same time believe that just one generation should insulate them from any responsibility for atrocities committed by their fathers. And all we ask for is an admission. We do not expect the sons and daughters to pay any price, other than letting truth see light.
The Armenian genocide is fading into the shadows of history, and a new batch of atrocities is crying out. So should we just say “well, it’s too late now anyway”? No!
That is what keeps this business going, the belief that as long as you can claim it to be an official act, then you will never be held responsible. The Nuremburg trials brought some mass murderers to justice. Since then many atrocities have been swept under the rug of history. And ongoing ones, like Darfur, we turn our back on.
So, it is important that the truth be brought to light, and it is so little to ask. Turkey should not be singled out for this. Today, farmers in Laos are still being killed by landmines dropped from US warplanes forty years ago. And the US refuses to sign the ban on land mines. Bringing truth to light is a poor and feeble excuse for justice, but in some cases it might be all we have.
Brian Young
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at 18:33, 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 0
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Hrant Dink
To Brian
Well , the disaster has happened to people who died there and this is so sad but there are many questions and statements in my mind in fact
1-Why did it happen ? Why not greeks or jews but armenians ? Do you know the process ? (this is not a trick my identitiy is revealed i guess , I am a turk )
2-Unfortunately this is a political issue which we (the sons) are being held responsible (The EU process)
3-Do you know relation between Turkish citizen's armenians relationshi with the other ones ?
4-Why are Americans for exaample are not being held responsible for the native indians ? (I mean this idea -They did so we did- is food of new slaughters I disagree wit it , I just want to understand why are we subject of a such kind of crime ?
5-Noone denies exie (which is bitter experience and people died while they were being exiled ) but genocide ????? Those days state philosophy was different very different it was not a nation it was a combined society we were not represented sevres just because we're not identified as a nation so ? How can we do it without this mentality ?
6-If you say peopple died yes they died some exhausted some got killed , but numbers are not that high ( which is not excuse but a parameter makes our generation to think why we're forced to confess ?) for example embassy reports are iin 1913 and 1919 are definitely different 13 says (don't know the exact number) some hundred thousands 1919 says 1,5 millions.
7-What was american protestant activities there at the time ?
8-Why was Fuller's blue book was written
9-Why alliies released the time's turkish governors? (which are held in malta after the war )
Ultimately I don't want to make politics and I'm (as a man who saves bugs from bath tub) very sorry for the people who deed there and I say ;
It was a quarrell had been started by armenian tashnak and hinchak groups for independence and in WW1's special conditions to punish the uerilas and relieve the troops ('cos it was a front to rusiians) they have been exiled (and many complex thing has hapened) and innocent crowds suffered vey bad , but they killed the forgotten turks and kurds at the region too .
My last words , I'm so sorry too for Hrant Dink because he used to say (despite armenian recent reaction he was not a beoved person n Armenia) "We Armenians are a thousands year civilisation and to ientify ourselves by only armenian genocide gives us harm and destroys our ancient identity" Tragedy has happened (a nationalist fanatic or an covered Turkish or ARMENIAN maybe organisation killed this valuable man , now I don't say anything to say , we are guilty in front of teh world's eyes but (as I already mentioned at one of my other review ) this is not important the important thing is he is gone and at this point I agree you , life is important not the politics, use or honour.
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Anthea
at 19:42, 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 14
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A thought.....
Another post recommended the book by Peter Balakian, Burning Tigris...it offers insight & clarity into exactly why the events that happened in Turkey to the Armenians (& Greeks & Syrians) does indeed qualify as genocide.
What happened to the Native Americans in is certainly genocide. Who would debate that fact? It is finally being taught in American History classes...a long time in coming. Yes, more can be done -- and needs to be done -- concerning reparation to the First Nation. Someone (the unnamed-post-person) asked "what about the Native Americans?" I don't believe this is a denial issue today, although it was in the past. Progress, slowly. Yet it is progress.
As a side note -- not that this in any way holds me blameless -- my family (mostly Greeks) was living in Turkey at the time North & South America were invaded by Europe. I try to keep in mind that at every point in history there have been those who were subjected to domination by another group of people. Our ancestors have all at one time or another been on the top AND on the bottom. No one is unaffected.
We are humans -- the "thinking" creatures of Planet Earth who have the ability to make conscious choices. We are evolving, imperfect beings. We make progress, slowly, yet it is progress.
Some of us believe there is power in admitting the error of our ways -- particularly when it comes to harming people/animals/the planet. Healing & learning begin only when we become willing to earnestly apologize...to do everything we can to make reparation for our mistakes.
I believe this is the only way our world will evolve & survive.
I also hope that this group will look at other issues in the world. And I hope that other discussions will take place. There is genocide happening on our planet right now. Only through education, openness, & acceptance of one another will we be able to someday end genocide forever. I pray that this is possible.
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at 01:06, 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 0
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To Anthea
I'm the guy who asked what about naive americans , (someone who posted without id) I logged in and I thought my id will automaticly displayed , I was not trying to be a ghost.
I did not ask the situaation of native americans I said ;
4-Why are Americans for exaample are not being held responsible for the native indians ? (I mean this idea -They did so we did- is food of new slaughters I disagree wit it , I just want to understand why are we subject of a such kind of crime ?
I just asked why are we subject of a political progress ( I wrote those in my mail) moreover it was an answer to Brian. By the way the sentence (I mean this idea -They did so we did- is food of new slaughters I disagree with it -I tried to mean it's unacceptable-) was quite so neutral I guess.
Anthea ; as far as I know until 1917 Greece was not involved the war and Turkish citizen Greeks were living in Turkey , until 1922 Greeks were not subject to assaults (Sorry to express but that means before 1919-22 Greek invasion of aegean region) (West anatolian destructin was accepted by venizelos in conference of Lousanne and ended with some border regulatiions on behalf of Turkey)
Well , it goes on I'm not trying to be right or nationalistic but I don't want to leave my people alone in thought as a postmodern way of thinking (briefly I do not want to be defeated by my ego)
The problem is ,
If there a native american genocide had occured then it must be recognized by the world (it was an example 'cos we talked about it) if not our issue (which is still not proven) must be forgotten as others has been.Because ALTHOUGH I ALSO FEEL SORRY FOR ARMENIANS IN ANATOLIA (I'm writing it maybe for 4 or 5th time) AND AGREE WITH YOU HOW PRECIOUS LIFE IS , IT IS NOT A HUMANIITY PROBLEM IT IS A POLTICAL ISSUE NOW
If I was in europe I would be sued because of my denial , now how can it be different from item 301 insulting turkishness (which I don't support actually) , I do not know any other law like it do you ? (I know holocoust but it is recognized by UN)
Another question , it is happened or not but if central powers had won the great war would world asked that ? NO NO NO NO NO , maybe I will be at your side saying armenian genocide is started to be debated in Turkish classes but as native american genocide we should put an end to all genocides .
You say your parents were moved from Turkey in your one of your reviews , and because of your family2s individually history you're eager to believe genocide , but I also know my mother's grandmother who were a child during WW1 , she used to tell us the civilian populace of blacksea region ( northeasern anatolia) were escaping from russian and armenian forces , when russian catch they pet her and her friends as harasho (beauty) and when armenians catch them (well noone ever had seen them afterwards) , and she was a qite honest person to tell us when they get each other they mutually beheaded and nail to trees each other.
Guys far from the anatolian theatre at WW1 , you know little about this issue , none of you dare to say it has been and uprising ongoing and I do not know a state which doesn't try to opress uprisings, yes I think too the the reaction was extreme but not different form many issues of wars.
I wrote many solid incidents and concepts but still the aswer is like (to the ghost writer, .....)
The world is ........... , I'm as in pain as you while thinking it , papers I could write (includes my countries faults) but nothing changes.We need an elf kind powerful UN maybe
Vakasimo
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